Peace, now this? WTF?

[Paladin_Hammer]

The European Union is lifting the arms ban on China

WTF? I thought Europe wanted nothing of war. Now they're gonna sell arms? WTF? Someone tell me how the 'no war' slogan of europe works with this?

I kinda think that the EU selling arms, and at the same time screaming about how we went to war contradicts itself. Someone explain this to me? I don't understand. Or is this just... whats the word? It's on the tip of my tongue, its almost there, oh yes, IGNORANCE!!!

[Imustbcr8zier]

"Do as I say, not as I do"

It's a motto of much of the human race. sorry, but you weren't born yesterday; this can't be the first time this has applied.

[GundamGuy]

The European Union is lifting the arms ban on China

WTF? I thought Europe wanted nothing of war. Now they're gonna sell arms? WTF? Someone tell me how the 'no war' slogan of europe works with this?

I kinda think that the EU selling arms, and at the same time screaming about how we went to war contradicts itself. Someone explain this to me? I don't understand. Or is this just... whats the word? It's on the tip of my tongue, its almost there, oh yes, IGNORANCE!!!

Are you for Gun Control?

[brit]

Selling arms is entirely different from using them yourself. When you understand that, you'll understand them. Sounds absurd, but in all likelyhood, that's what's going on here.

[steelers000]

Cash Rules Everything Around Me.... Understand that and a lot of weird things start to make sense.

[Cybaster]

Yeeeeeah. The EU probably did that because they know if China does start a war, they're going to get slaughtered by America, so they might as well profit from it anyway since it's probably only a matter of time anyway before Bush includes North Korea/China in his 'Axis of Evil' and wages war against them...

[Paladin_Hammer]

Are you for Gun Control?

Depends on the reach of it. I'm for ownership, but I feel better knowing that you need a permit, that backround checks are done to find any potential/already criminals. Why the heck does anyone need a fully-auto ak? You can't hunt with it (what would be the sport in it? Spray the field, no skill), most full-auto weapons can punch through two houses.

Now pistols, bolt-action rifles, and shotguns are alright. I own a colt myself, and know that if someone enters my home, they'll think twice about stealing once they see my little friend. I hunt water-fowl (and if you can hit a bird out of the sky with something besides a shotgun, your one hell of a marksman. And I deer-hunt, rifle is the quickest way to kill the animal so it doesn't feel pain. And its fair, you miss, he/she gets off (unless they're stupid, which most to them are.)

Also were not talking about gun-control. Were talking about the sale of Tanks, aircraft, armored cars, missles, and all other wants of the Chinese Military. I'd rather not give they're dictator the weapons he needs for expansion. (Think of a war with Taiwan, with the EU supplying weapons, it would be worse than any other war we've ever seen.)

Selling arms is entirely different from using them yourself. When you understand that, you'll understand them. Sounds absurd, but in all likelyhood, that's what's going on here.

So giving tanks, bombers, and possibly ICBM's should just be traded freely around the world? Even to guys who have killed their own people? (Read the article, china ruthlessly crushes all internal oppostiton). Then what happens if China decides to take over Taiwan? The US will defend them, and then the EU can feel good knowing that the tank that just killed one of their allies soldiers was made by them.
I guess Europe thinks that it's high and mighty, that it can critize the use of force, then supply the means of which to make it, but the world isn't stupid. We did what we did based on info at the time, and the knowledge that Sadam used them before, but these guys want to just give it all away. Sounds like what they did in the Oil-for-Food scandal. Europe is f-cked up nowadays.

[GundamGuy]

Depends on the reach of it. I'm for ownership, but I feel better knowing that you need a permit, that backround checks are done to find any potential/already criminals. Why the heck does anyone need a fully-auto ak? You can't hunt with it (what would be the sport in it? Spray the field, no skill), most full-auto weapons can punch through two houses.

Now pistols, bolt-action rifles, and shotguns are alright. I own a colt myself, and know that if someone enters my home, they'll think twice about stealing once they see my little friend. I hunt water-fowl (and if you can hit a bird out of the sky with something besides a shotgun, your one hell of a marksman. And I deer-hunt, rifle is the quickest way to kill the animal so it doesn't feel pain. And its fair, you miss, he/she gets off (unless they're stupid, which most to them are.)

Also were not talking about gun-control. Were talking about the sale of Tanks, aircraft, armored cars, missles, and all other wants of the Chinese Military. I'd rather not give they're dictator the weapons he needs for expansion. (Think of a war with Taiwan, with the EU supplying weapons, it would be worse than any other war we've ever seen.)

Well we agree about gun-control.
The under lying principles are the same. but anyway...

You know we are allies with China right.

[Paladin_Hammer]

Well we agree about gun-control.
The under lying principles are the same. but anyway...

You know we are allies with China right.

Good to see were not at each others throats. I like friends (although I keep my enemies closer.)

Our 'allaince' with China is a fragile one. If they invaded Taiwan, kiss that allaince good-bye. Chinese -Taiwanese relations are sour at best. Taiwan wants independence, China says Taiwan is their Island. Being Americans, and seeing as our roots involve breaking away from tryanny, we'd obviously support Taiwan.

Once again, giving China weapons would cause a lot of bad-feelings here in the US. Bush is trying to mend relations over in Europe, but there will be riots here at home if China starts recieving European tanks and arms.

[GundamGuy]

Our 'allaince' with China is a fragile one. If they invaded Taiwan, kiss that allaince good-bye. Chinese -Taiwanese relations are sour at best. Taiwan wants independence, China says Taiwan is their Island. Being Americans, and seeing as our roots involve breaking away from tryanny, we'd obviously support Taiwan.

Im not so sure we would support Taiwan. Walmart imports over 24 billion dollars a year in good's from China... they make alot of stuff we buy at low prices... If we opposed them the price of alot of essential good will go up overnite, and we will suffer though an economic recession.

So supporting Taiwan would be very costly to the US. Not just in lives.

[brit]

So giving tanks, bombers, and possibly ICBM's should just be traded freely around the world? Even to guys who have killed their own people? (Read the article, china ruthlessly crushes all internal oppostiton). Then what happens if China decides to take over Taiwan? The US will defend them, and then the EU can feel good knowing that the tank that just killed one of their allies soldiers was made by them.
I guess Europe thinks that it's high and mighty, that it can critize the use of force, then supply the means of which to make it, but the world isn't stupid. We did what we did based on info at the time, and the knowledge that Sadam used them before, but these guys want to just give it all away. Sounds like what they did in the Oil-for-Food scandal. Europe is f-cked up nowadays.

Laffo. They already have it, as they can make thier own. The only difference is they'll have weapons of a different origin. That's all. It's not like somebody came in and said, "We ban you from getting weapons elsewhere, AND we're here to take what you started with. We don't want another Tiananmen Square, you know?" Things don't work like that. Besides that, regardless what weapons China gets or makes, we'll have the upper hand.

[Paladin_Hammer]

Laffo. They already have it, as they can make thier own. The only difference is they'll have weapons of a different origin. That's all. It's not like somebody came in and said, "We ban you from getting weapons elsewhere, AND we're here to take what you started with. We don't want another Tiananmen Square, you know?" Things don't work like that. Besides that, regardless what weapons China gets or makes, we'll have the upper hand.

Alot to say here. China has weapons now, yes. But read the damn article, they're weapons are outdated. They build they're own models, which pale in comparison to the Abrams tank, they use the same helicopters that they ussed during the Veitnam era (they exported some to the NVA, they produced them after Russia sent them to China),. They're still using the MiG's, and they're using the AK, which has been outdated since the 70's. (The AN-90 I think the Russians named it, is the most advanced firearm in the world. When you see US soldiers weilding what look like AK's, thats actually the AN. It has nearly no-drawn back, other than a slighty less-reliable design as compared to the Ak-47.)

Clearly, China is using some era-old weapons. They improve on them, but china has yet to come up with is own designs that are on the same level as western technology. Probably because comunisiom doesn't support intellectualism.

The US would NOT have the upper hand in a war with China. By they're government, all Chinese citizens are soldiers. Should war break out, we'd face every adult male China has. It would be a poorly trained army, but once again I bring up Veitnam. Same story, only now were talking about our Allies helping our enemies. We'd have to pull some fancy stunts to make the war turn in our favor, and we don't have an army experinced in the kind of combat we saw in Veitnam. did you know the Chinese battleship uses guns for ship-to-ship fighting? Our battleships use missles, the big guns have been out of date for decades.

We'd have technology on our side if China and the US went to war right now. But if Europe sends arms to China, they'd have the same tech. and a larger army. Not good for us.

On the Gundam story of our imports, most of our manufactered products now come from Central/South America, and Taiwan. It says made in China, but look closely and the product will say "Taiwan Providence". Even then, should war with China break out, the effects would be worse on them. We buy most of their goods, and should something happen, they'd have nowhere to sell them. They'd flood other markets, like Japan, the Japanese would raise tariffs, the world would, and every Chinese boy would have a new PC.

[GundamGuy]

On the Gundam story of our imports, most of our manufactered products now come from Central/South America, and Taiwan. It says made in China, but look closely and the product will say "Taiwan Providence". Even then, should war with China break out, the effects would be worse on them. We buy most of their goods, and should something happen, they'd have nowhere to sell them. They'd flood other markets, like Japan, the Japanese would raise tariffs, the world would, and every Chinese boy would have a new PC.

Regardless of who makes the prodect they export it to the US, so the money goes through their hands.

Of course, if a war would be mutualy bad, like you say it would be then why have one in the first place. The Chinese would not start a war if it would kill them economicly... so why would they want to start a war with Taiwan.

[brit]

Alot to say here. China has weapons now, yes. But read the damn article, they're weapons are outdated. They build they're own models, which pale in comparison to the Abrams tank, they use the same helicopters that they ussed during the Veitnam era (they exported some to the NVA, they produced them after Russia sent them to China),. They're still using the MiG's, and they're using the AK, which has been outdated since the 70's. (The AN-90 I think the Russians named it, is the most advanced firearm in the world. When you see US soldiers weilding what look like AK's, thats actually the AN. It has nearly no-drawn back, other than a slighty less-reliable design as compared to the Ak-47.)

Clearly, China is using some era-old weapons. They improve on them, but china has yet to come up with is own designs that are on the same level as western technology. Probably because comunisiom doesn't support intellectualism.

The US would NOT have the upper hand in a war with China. By they're government, all Chinese citizens are soldiers. Should war break out, we'd face every adult male China has. It would be a poorly trained army, but once again I bring up Veitnam. Same story, only now were talking about our Allies helping our enemies. We'd have to pull some fancy stunts to make the war turn in our favor, and we don't have an army experinced in the kind of combat we saw in Veitnam. did you know the Chinese battleship uses guns for ship-to-ship fighting? Our battleships use missles, the big guns have been out of date for decades.

We'd have technology on our side if China and the US went to war right now. But if Europe sends arms to China, they'd have the same tech. and a larger army. Not good for us.

Regardless of when the weapons were made, they DO have them. As shitty as they may be, they are still effective, althought to a lesser extent then what they would be getting. That's what I said. That's what I meant. If they wanted to, they could go and fuck up Taiwan at any time. Blitzkriegs are still pretty effective as far as I know.

Edit: After re-reading the article, I have come to the realization that it said nothing of the quality of China's weapons. Nor did it speak of anything in the quoted post besides the Taiwan relations. Or should I follow each and every individual link to get this information?

[Toto]

Well, when America eventually delcares war, they've gotta even up the playing field?
No? Only America can have a fuckload of nukes? k.